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Alt / Smurf Clubs Harm the Health of Dojo Wars and Should be Discouraged

Pink G

Apprentice
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
238
Preface: Girthy Grumvels has announced that they created an alt club, Empty, full of their alt accounts so they play the dojo wars during the week in the dojos they are already holding. Their reasoning is that they want to play competitive matches at a higher calibre than ladder and obtain more rewards.

This caused a huge uproar, because, well, they're practically *stealing* a dojo reward/spot from one of the other clubs, which is extremely alarming when there is already huge concern on the health of dojo wars (see: Dojo Wars - the Good, the Bad & the Ugly (destroying clubs, unfair advantages & amazing rewards) )

Why are Alt / Smurf Clubs Harmful?
  1. One Less Reward Slot - One other club is being denied a reward, basically. When alts do saipark, fishing, etc., although they get more rewards, they are not taking this away from anyone else. With Dojo Wars, this is different. When those rewards are significant and could aid newer clubs and players gain more footing, the existence of smurf clubs is harmful.
  2. Demotivational for Smaller Clubs - There are several clubs already feeling demotivated. Having to fight another high-tier club during the week means there is less chance to get a reward or perform well during the week. Along with the time commitment required, the less consistent reward they get, the more clubs will start opting out of playing the wars.
  3. Pay to Win - Crema has been consistently against pay to win methods, however, having an alt club basically gives these players twice the chance to hold a dojo. Many dojo battles end up 8-7 and 17-16, so it is not simply a matter of "being better", as there are other advantages, such as scouting and getting used to how to play against someone (with the advantage of not being reliably counter-scouted).
  4. Unsportsmanlike - It would feel incredibly unfair to defeat a club, only to face them again in the final. The unfair advantage is unsportsmanlike. If PvP and E-Sports is something Crema want to tackle seriously, they have to actively stand against such unsportsmanlike behaviour, otherwise Temtem esports will be overshadowed by the inaction of Crema, and this could deter players from taking Temtem seriously.
  5. Cannot be Disputed - Even the club who has created the alt club has acknowledged it is not good for the game, however it is not up to them to uphold sportsmanlike behaviour as long as it is allowed by Crema. The other argument is that it was just a matter of time, but either way, nobody is saying that this is good for the game.
What needs to change?

There are a couple of changes required, both to appease to the tyrants who will do as they please as long as Crema allows them, as well as for the other players who care about the health and longevity of the game.

Discouraging Alts from Partaking in Dojo Wars

In basic terms, if you're not discouraging it, you're enabling it. Regardless of whether there is an efficient automatic way to do it or not, it needs to happen.
  • Crema has to come out against this and discourage alt play in dojo wars and in-game tournaments.
  • Clubs who abuse the system should be punishable by either removal of rewards, or a temporary ban for the club from entering dojo clubs in the following week (or more if repeat offenders). I don't expect Crema to be able to be enforce this 100%, but there are some obvious alt clubs / accounts that would be identifiable.
  • Consider temporary bans on eSports for players who are found to abuse any system that Crema has explicitly discouraged.
  • Actively discourage discord conversation where a player can encourage others to "abuse the system" and blame Crema for it. It's unsportsmanlike and, I honestly, they are pointing at Crema to fix a problem that these players themselves created.
Finding a Solution

Perhaps... my post comes a bit too early. One of the biggest arguments that Grumvels have put forward is that there are no other equal rewarding PvP content.
With potential comp changes and increase in end-game activities, as we will see later this week, this might be irrelevant.. Although, would you have faith that these activities would make such clubs happy enough not to abuse their alt accounts? I wouldn't.
  • Better rewards and engaging ladder system. I think doesn't need elaboration and most likely already in the works.
  • Meaningful endgame content. Also on the way. 1.0 hype!
  • Change Dojo War Format. A popular suggestion is that KOTH format should be removed. I do not like this (I think I deserve the week off and enjoy some luma hunting now that we hold 2 dojos). Moreover, this issue will arise in various formats (e.g. entering with 2 teams to find the 'easiest' bracket.
  • Be more vocal against bad sportsmanship. Deleting a couple of snarky discord comments won't do much

Things That Would NOT be a Solution

I don't think the following are viable:
  • Outright banning alt accounts. Alt accounts are too widespread for this decision to be made. Moreover, alt accounts repeating PvE content do not take away any existing rewards (although may inflate the economy).
  • Do nothing. If Crema does nothing, they give impression they do not care, and such attitude is not great for eSports.
  • Reduce Rewards. Not the best idea... as it will kill motivation and cause more harm than good.
Summary

Let's be honest... If only Crema were to blame, PDX would have done this when they had 5 dojos. They didn't. Why? It's not a Crema problem that affects skilled players, but a loophole that allows bad sportsmanship behaviour. (Kudos to PDX to not have done this despite being in a position way better than Grumvels to do so).

Taking action and discouraging an activity that only high-tiered clubs with alt accounts are able to abuse is important to continue standing against pay-to-win and unsportsmanlike behaviour. A lack of doing so would put a bad light on Crema when it comes to eSports related organisations. Unfortunately, you cannot always please everyone, however, if they appease to the abusers, this would kill community growth and by that affect, has negative consequences for the longetivity and health of Temtem.
 

Stripclub

Apprentice
Joined
Mar 10, 2020
Messages
162
i think alt accounts have been fundamentally broken since temtem has been released but this is the first time that they actively HURT the playerbase.

as part of a club thats pretty new to PVP, dojowar rewards have been a huge motivation for our pvpers, they like idea of playing pvp as a group and the rewards have been very decent, they gave us, who are pretty much at the bottom of the pyramid a sense of accomplishment.

temtems pvp scene has been pretty small and elite so far, there is a HUGE GAP between skill levels and i dont think that top players multiaccounting for rewards is healthy for the game, the community and its future.

dojowars structure has been criticised in the past, holders not having to re-enter the tournament and dodging the biggest banana peel has been controversial, with the new knowledge and holders being so bored that they make alt clubs to participate THE SAME TOURNAMENT for extra rewards the situation should be a huge red flag for crema and a BIG wake up call for the community.

the format is massively oversized, the time commitment required is too big for smaller and mid level clubs & the entry barrier is ENOURMOUS. dojowars structure has caused a lot of change, pvp players are moving clubs constantly, poaching, small clubs are dissolving... while being a great mechanic, it has its bad sides and THIS is another one. multiaccounting has to be dealt with... but how?

i was pondering about a "club war ticket" system. tickets that you get for playing the regular pvp ladder. if you dont have a ticket you cant participate in wars. this would discourage alts while regular pvp players wouldnt be affected (I HOPE? PVP-PLAYERS PLEASE WEIGH IN).

i think PINK G really hit the nail on the head with this post and whatever change has to be made, its needs to be on a fundamental level because even if you were to ban ips or hardware from participating in the same war, it could still be easily circumvented.

i also dont think that upping regular ladder rewards will do much, this would almost feel like a hostage situation where the kidnapper is enforcing his demands 😂

if KOTH would be removed and holders had to fight again, would they still enter with their alt accounts?

PS: w
 
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Devinup

Rookie
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
97
This is not great. My club has a fledgling pvp interest but this just means we'll be matched up against people with much higher TMRs than us more regularly. Or at least alts of players with higher TMRs. This seems difficult to police but it could be a demotivator for small clubs as mentioned. Club dojos have been fun and it's nice to do something as a group and support club unity. Maybe the issue for that point is that there's little else to do together as a club. It's been fun when we're matched up against similar clubs that we can compete against and it's even been fun going up against Only Goats and similar clubs as a test. However, if all the big time clubs have a second club with the same players, then it lessens the chance of playing a similar club to ours. Club tournaments with some kind of tier system to keep similar clubs together would be cool, even if only the top tier clubs get to control the dojo. Alternatively, maybe future club activities will give those clubs additional options.

Edit: I know that we could also git gud. That's why we're playing.
 
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Silentfrost

Rookie
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Messages
12
Let me preface this by saying that i disagree with putting your alts in a second club and entering that into dojo wars.

Grumvels (well, any club that wins) do however have a point; they are being penalised because they won. Dojo wars isnt all about the rewards; the players enjoy competing and suddenly they dont get to compete because they won.

There needs to be an alternative for them to participate in which isnt dojo wars (currently doesnt exist), or they need to be allowed to participate in it.

While i think part of the problem is the King of the Hill format, if the game gets a massive influx of players from 1.0, i can see more than 5 people per club per day wanting to participate. I can see secondary 'alt' clubs becoming more of a commonplace thing even in a regular tournament bracket as a result; the only reason it hasnt already is because there arent enough people playing the game actively at present. Crema need to come up with a different solution.
 

Ray

Rookie
Joined
May 26, 2021
Messages
12
i think alt accounts have been fundamentally broken since temtem has been released but this is the first time that they actively HURT the playerbase.

as part of a club thats pretty new to PVP, dojowar rewards have been a huge motivation for our pvpers, they like idea of playing pvp as a group and the rewards have been very decent, they gave us, who are pretty much at the bottom of the pyramid a sense of accomplishment.

temtems pvp scene has been pretty small and elite so far, there is a HUGE GAP between skill levels and i dont think that top players multiaccounting for rewards is healthy for the game, the community and its future.

dojowars structure has been criticised in the past, holders not having to re-enter the tournament and dodging the biggest banana peel has been controversial, with the new knowledge and holders being so bored that they make alt clubs to participate THE SAME TOURNAMENT for extra rewards should be a BIG wake up call.

the format is massively oversized, the time commitment requiered is too big for smaller and mid level clubs & the entry barrier is ENOURMOUS. dojowars structure has caused a lot of change, pvp players are moving clubs constantly, poaching, small clubs are dissolving... while being a great mechanic, it has its bad sides and THIS is another one. multiaccounting has to be dealt with... but how?

i was pondering about a "club war ticket" system. tickets that you get for playing the regular pvp ladder. if you dont have a ticket you cant participate in wars. this would discourage alts while regular pvp players wouldnt be affected (I HOPE? PVPER PLEASE WEIGH IN).

i think PINK G really hit the nail on the head with this post and whatever change has to be made, its needs to be on a fundamental level because even if you were to ban ips or hardware from participating in the same war, it could still be easily circumvented.

i also dont think that upping regular ladder rewards will do much, this would almost feel like a hostage situation where the kidnapper is enforcing his demands 😂

if KOTH would be removed and holders had to fight again, would they still enter with their alt accounts?

PS: w
I agree with most of what you wrote but I don’t think the club wars tickets will solve it. The players would just play the required ladder matches on their alts - many already play on alts regularly to test stuff.

It is a shame as I do genuinely like the KOTH format. I also really like dojos but I’m a little worried that with their schedules they are monopolizing the competitive scene perhaps a bit too much (it’s very difficult to find time for other competitive activities such as community tournaments with the dojo war schedule)

There’s definitely not an easy nor a singular answer here, unfortunately. Part of peoples issues with this is the optics of the Grumvels mission here (If a successful club created a secondary club and used it SOLELY for training newer recruits in the format I don’t think anyone would have an issue - in fact I’d argue that is beneficial and should be allowed)
 
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Patterknife

Rookie
Joined
Aug 10, 2020
Messages
4
i think alt accounts have been fundamentally broken since temtem has been released but this is the first time that they actively HURT the playerbase.

as part of a club thats pretty new to PVP, dojowar rewards have been a huge motivation for our pvpers, they like idea of playing pvp as a group and the rewards have been very decent, they gave us, who are pretty much at the bottom of the pyramid a sense of accomplishment.

temtems pvp scene has been pretty small and elite so far, there is a HUGE GAP between skill levels and i dont think that top players multiaccounting for rewards is healthy for the game, the community and its future.

dojowars structure has been criticised in the past, holders not having to re-enter the tournament and dodging the biggest banana peel has been controversial, with the new knowledge and holders being so bored that they make alt clubs to participate THE SAME TOURNAMENT for extra rewards the situation should be a huge red flag for crema and a BIG wake up call for the community.

the format is massively oversized, the time commitment requiered is too big for smaller and mid level clubs & the entry barrier is ENOURMOUS. dojowars structure has caused a lot of change, pvp players are moving clubs constantly, poaching, small clubs are dissolving... while being a great mechanic, it has its bad sides and THIS is another one. multiaccounting has to be dealt with... but how?

i was pondering about a "club war ticket" system. tickets that you get for playing the regular pvp ladder. if you dont have a ticket you cant participate in wars. this would discourage alts while regular pvp players wouldnt be affected (I HOPE? PVPER PLEASE WEIGH IN).

i think PINK G really hit the nail on the head with this post and whatever change has to be made, its needs to be on a fundamental level because even if you were to ban ips or hardware from participating in the same war, it could still be easily circumvented.

i also dont think that upping regular ladder rewards will do much, this would almost feel like a hostage situation where the kidnapper is enforcing his demands 😂

if KOTH would be removed and holders had to fight again, would they still enter with their alt accounts?

PS: w
i think alt accounts arent that bad from the get go in this scenario. if your club fills an alt to get up to 5 its better then not showing up at all and also a disadvantage for the one playing 2 at the same time, the problem lies in having a second club to either decide from the start which bracket looks better to play in or just run both at the same time (maybe with different people until one of the clubs drop) but having a semi double elim while others dont have that is what i dont like here.
 
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Joined
May 19, 2021
Messages
340
"i was pondering about a "club war ticket" system. tickets that you get for playing the regular pvp ladder. if you dont have a ticket you cant participate in wars. this would discourage alts while regular pvp players wouldnt be affected (I HOPE? PVP-PLAYERS PLEASE WEIGH IN)."

ABSOLUTELY NOT.


As soon as this change is made, wars participation would plummet into the ground. Not everyone that plays PVP wants to play ladder constantly, and in somewhat niche cases like mine where I'm right at 1200, in this new system I'd be completely locked out of dojo wars if I were forced to play ladder and risk my rating falling below 1200 and not being able to enter gold-tier tournaments to aim for a title.
 

Shathieash

Rookie
Joined
Apr 8, 2022
Messages
5
"i was pondering about a "club war ticket" system. tickets that you get for playing the regular pvp ladder. if you dont have a ticket you cant participate in wars. this would discourage alts while regular pvp players wouldnt be affected (I HOPE? PVP-PLAYERS PLEASE WEIGH IN)."

ABSOLUTELY NOT.


As soon as this change is made, wars participation would plummet into the ground. Not everyone that plays PVP wants to play ladder constantly, and in somewhat niche cases like mine where I'm right at 1200, in this new system I'd be completely locked out of dojo wars if I were forced to play ladder and risk my rating falling below 1200 and not being able to enter gold-tier tournaments to aim for a title.
People play ladder on their alts.
 

Gami

Apprentice
Joined
Mar 16, 2020
Messages
226
One thing I would like to add is that Dojo War is quite unique, we wont have another activity like this one, I genuinly think that no one would go as far as to create an alt club with all their alts for advantage cause otherwhise they would get absolutely badmouthed by the community, and understandibly so, and even though the rewards are high, they are not as high as to make it worth.

While in this current position, you really cant blame any club for doing an alt club because they are just bored and want to play, again this all just adds to removing koth. Like I said many times, koth doesnt add anything into the game apart of advantage/disadvantage of not playing (which can cause cases like this), less fair finals, and double finals to conquer a dojo.

I really really think no club would go as far as to create an alt account with their alts if it wasnt for this one and only reason of just wanting to play.
 
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Ray

Rookie
Joined
May 26, 2021
Messages
12
One thing I would like to add is that Dojo War is quite unique, we wont have another activity like this one, I genuinly think that no one would go as far as to create an alt club with all their alts for advantage cause otherwhise they would get absolutely badmouthed by the community, and understandibly so, and even though the rewards are high, they are not as high as to make it worth.

While in this current position, you really cant blame any club for doing an alt club because they are just bored and want to play, again this all just adds to removing koth. Like I said many times, koth doesnt add anything into the game apart of advantage/disadvantage of not playing (which can cause cases like this), less fair finals, and double finals to conquer a dojo.

I really really think no club would go as far as to create an alt account with their alts if it wasnt for this one and only reason of just wanting to play.
Well it depends, right? If there are more club based activities with rewards added (and there should be) than there will exist an incentive for clubs to increase their chances to obtain those rewards.
 

Scallywag

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Joined
Jan 8, 2021
Messages
17
Yeah I don't like the club wars ticket idea. I personally lost most of my interest in ladder but I love dojo wars.
I also like the KOTH format and think it's great fun.
I however feel like trying to get to finals with alts for dojos that you already hold is just bad sportsmanship. If it was me and I'd play for fun/practise (which i totally get) i would just concede matches come thursday, latest friday to keep the integrity of the finals in tact.

I have no idea how to fix this except by enforcing rules with tempbans or sth. But it is hard to prove if alt accounts are being used without a lot of investigation and might not be realistic.
 

Gami

Apprentice
Joined
Mar 16, 2020
Messages
226
Well it depends, right? If there are more club based activities with rewards added (and there should be) than there will exist an incentive for clubs to increase their chances to obtain those rewards.
There is no reason to have another bracket club system. If we get like a 11v11 once per week thing, having alts in that situation wouldnt make sense, apart that even if you used alts it would be considered fair, as it would be just a 11v11 thing vs another club instead of a bracket where fairness has a role.

Even with a 11v11 once per week thing with club elo, like I have suggested before, having alts there would be pointless.
 

Ray

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May 26, 2021
Messages
12
There is no reason to have another bracket club system. If we get like a 11v11 once per week thing, having alts in that situation wouldnt make sense, apart that even if you used alts it would be considered fair, as it would be just a 11v11 thing vs another club instead of a bracket where fairness has a role.

Even with a 11v11 once per week thing with club elo, like I have suggested before, having alts there would be pointless.
Yeah I doubt there will be another PvP activity, but there could be a PvE club activity implemented that incentivizes having a separate but related club with alt accounts
 

Gami

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Messages
226
Yeah I doubt there will be another PvP activity, but there could be a PvE club activity implemented that incentivizes having a separate but related club with alt accounts
Idk what kind of pve competition there could be and if there were any I think alts would be fair game there.

To explain further, lets say there is a competition of which club gets most lumas, if someone is gonna hunt with 4 accounts, can they only have 1 of those accounts in a club at all? That doesnt seem resonable, you are hunting with 4 accounts, just let the 4 accounts count.

Even if it would be unfair, this is actually so much harder for crema to control than the pvp.
 

Ray

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May 26, 2021
Messages
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Idk what kind of pve competition there could be and if there were any I think alts would be fair game there.

To explain further, lets say there is a competition of which club gets most lumas, if someone is gonna hunt with 4 accounts, can they only have 1 of those accounts in a club at all? That doesnt seem resonable, you are hunting with 4 accounts, just let the 4 accounts count.

Even if it would be unfair, this is actually so much harder for crema to control than the pvp.
Yeah, it’s just a hypothetical - we don’t know what those activities are or if they will exist. I’m just saying that this issue may not necessarily be isolated to dojo wars.
 

Milyiuna

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Joined
Feb 5, 2020
Messages
12
Just remove KOTH format and make it a tournament format and boom, suddenly people are too busy to play alt accs during week :ROFLMAO: tried to say KOTH wasn't it chief
The KOTH format isnt even the problem here. Yes, it has its downsides but creating an alt club for more rewards got nothing to do with it and thats the main problem here (even if Grumvels wouldnt do it if the format wouldnt exist, someone else would if the rewards are good enough). If you got 10 players active at the same time, you can easily play on 2 clubs to get more rewards and as someone in compchat called it "get one more life/chance".

I also dont like the ticket system because it forces every player interested in dojo wars to invest even more time into that feature which would raise the entree barrier even more.
 

Cheware

Tamer
Joined
Nov 2, 2020
Messages
642
That seems to be typically the case of the games not enforcing the one-account-per-player "rule" (not sure it even exists for Temtem), as it makes them more money, but it also encourages P2W practices.

That definitely doesn't sound good
 

GundamFlicker

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Joined
Jan 27, 2020
Messages
204
That seems to be typically the case of the games not enforcing the one-account-per-player "rule" (not sure it even exists for Temtem), as it makes them more money, but it also encourages P2W practices.

That definitely doesn't sound good

Yeah Temtem has no such rule. Officially they have a neutral stance although some staff have tacitly supported or encouraged it on Discord. It's a bit late to make such a limiting rule too because then you'd have a lot of *very* unhappy customers. Until the recent update boosted storage capacity there was a strong incentive to get alts just for the extra boxes alone.
 

Cheware

Tamer
Joined
Nov 2, 2020
Messages
642
Yeah Temtem has no such rule. Officially they have a neutral stance although some staff have tacitly supported or encouraged it on Discord. It's a bit late to make such a limiting rule too because then you'd have a lot of *very* unhappy customers. Until the recent update boosted storage capacity there was a strong incentive to get alts just for the extra boxes alone.
Yeah, clearly, such rule should exist from the beginning otherwise it's fucked. So they can only create new specific rules for such contents... but how possible, successful and enforced will it be ?

Alt accounts can even bid on their own offerings if they've put a too low price, and I'm pretty sure that's the case for most of these 300 pansun starting offer bids.

At one point, they will have to clarify the limits, or they'll risk having some hardcore guys having 10 alts with 10 computers monopolizing the dojo wars.
 

Gami

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Mar 16, 2020
Messages
226
The KOTH format isnt even the problem here. Yes, it has its downsides but creating an alt club for more rewards got nothing to do with it and thats the main problem here (even if Grumvels wouldnt do it if the format wouldnt exist, someone else would if the rewards are good enough). If you got 10 players active at the same time, you can easily play on 2 clubs to get more rewards and as someone in compchat called it "get one more life/chance".

I also dont like the ticket system because it forces every player interested in dojo wars to invest even more time into that feature which would raise the entree barrier even more.
If rewards are good enough, yourself said it, but they wont be good enough, so we can just remove koth to eliminate the only explanation of alt club.

I think there could still be room for sub clubs, that would be for example, if a club has 100 people, 2 clubs could enter at the same time, just dont have alts in there cause that essentially is giving multiple opportunities. The problem with koth is that it really incentivices creating an alt club, made from actual alts because your roster is "trapped" in grand finals, which even if it is an inmense advantage, it really incentivices making an alt club, which then goes on to give even more advantage.

I dont think removing just koth will remove all problems longterm, I believe it would do so rn though, and will contribute on making it easier longterm.
 
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Doge

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Jan 30, 2020
Messages
38
Is it too late to discuss the impact of the interests established by multiple accounts?
At first more economic and radar Lumas caused the balancing problem is normal to be enjoyed by the community .
Now PVP feels very different? Will it be too late?
 

Parz ace

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Apr 21, 2021
Messages
21
The KOTH format isnt even the problem here. Yes, it has its downsides but creating an alt club for more rewards got nothing to do with it and thats the main problem here (even if Grumvels wouldnt do it if the format wouldnt exist, someone else would if the rewards are good enough). If you got 10 players active at the same time, you can easily play on 2 clubs to get more rewards and as someone in compchat called it "get one more life/chance".

I also dont like the ticket system because it forces every player interested in dojo wars to invest even more time into that feature which would raise the entree barrier even more.
You are arguing something completely different than the topic of the post. The post is about alt accounts. No one is against splitting your club or starting a second club with DIFFERENT PEOPLE PLAYING.

I personally don't agree with the ticket system either, but I think strip was just throwing ideas out there. There is also only one aspect of dojo wars that is KOTH as well, which is the final round. The game mode is a tournament bracket and removing the small KOTH aspect would make the game mode a lot better for a lot of people.

If the bracket winner of the last week has to replay in the bracket you can remove an entire round making it Tuesday - Saturday which is better than Mon - Saturday. With the decline of clubs joining the game mode it's been super nice to play Tuesday - Saturday and helps with the burnout and time sink. There is no real solution to the alt controversy, but I do feel like removing the small KOTH aspect would make it harder to play on 2 accounts since you have to play every week. Grumvels even said they were bored holding the dojos and that's a reason why they are doing it. This would benefit everyone greatly.
 
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