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How Zenoreth could have a separate niche when compared to Valash

Rigaudon

Apprentice
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
109
Had this discussion in the #competitive discord chat and I want to write it down before I forget it. Disclaimer that I don't think Zenoreth is weak, but I do think that Zenoreth has an issue with role overlap (valash/tort/zeno, and Zeno normally loses out).

Currently, Zeno is the last pick when players have to choose between them...most of the time. Generally, this is because:

A) Valash/other crystals have more forgiving stamina move options. If an enemy barely survives crystal spikes, Valash can use crystal dust. Zenoreth doesn't have anything like that.
B) Valash has sustainability and efficient returns when buffed. Zenoreth doesn't.
C) Valash has decent synergy options because it has a Neutral secondary typing. Crystal types in general aren't specifically desired on most teams, crystal synergy isn't common.
D) Tortenite has specific synergies and some unique utility that Zenoreth lacks, so teams that don't want Valash may want Tortenite instead.
E) Gyalis doesn't have a turn 1, but it does have coverage, so teams that do not want Tortenite/Valash automatically do not want Zenoreth if they are considering Gyalis....most of the time.

Zenoreth does have better bulk and some scary special attack power, though, which can set it apart a little bit. But I'd like to suggest another route Zenoreth can take.

1) Replace Wrecked Farewell trait with a different and new second trait.
----This second trait would allow Zenoreth to ignore defensive buffs / offensive debuffs when attacking. So if there is a Yowlar with +def and + sp def, Zenoreth will hit the Yowlar as if it had no buffs. Alternately, have it ignore all enemy buffs, so it takes normal damage from buffed tems and does its regular damage to buffed tems.

This gives Zenoreth better returns for self buffing/allies buffing it. While it can't keep going forever in the same way Valash could, it could start getting really scary. Without ally support it is still reliable, but likely not overwhelming. 70 base offensive stat is good, but it isn't that good. Until a madness buff, anyway.

I should note that Zenoreths that build this trait should have attacks that benefit it in a way that makes it competitive to Channer.

2) Give Zenoreth decent low-stamina moves so it can finish enemies off without having to use another 29 stamina.
----This gives it better "rational" options for attacks in more situations. It only has stabs right now, and that's a little awkward since we don't build physical Zenoreth in its current state.

There is something to be said about giving it more diverse moves (Zenoreth has a physical attack stat, but physical Zenoreth has no reason to be used currently.) I don't know how healthy it would be to have a tem that has both special and physical options. However, we can kind of see that this probably wouldn't be oppressive based on some Koish variants, physical valash existing, and Innki. If physical Zenoreth gets a good turn 1 physical crystal move, that would give it a small tool to help it stand out even more.
 
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Goldschuss

Apprentice
Joined
Mar 7, 2020
Messages
249
Or simply, you know, coverage options?
Zeno is buff up and hit everything that stands in your way, meaning it's quickly walled by earth and fire types. A simple water move would suffice. 90 BP, 0 hold, 23 stamina, normal priority something like this.
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2020
Messages
517
From a couple months ago:
Zenoreth: I wouldn't bother using it even with Crystal Dust. Tortenite and Valash would still be far better. One thing that'd make me immediately want to use it is one low damage water coverage attack, Water Blade for example. Normally I wouldn't want this kind of buff but Zenoreth is the only Crystal Spikes user with no other viable special attacks.
Water Blade or Aqua Bullet Hell would make Zenoreth unique among the special attacker crystal types but there's no thematic reason for Zenoreth to have either.

A simple water move would suffice. 90 BP, 0 hold, 23 stamina, normal priority
That's very close to Water Cannon. Having a coverage attack against two of three weaknesses is plenty of advantage without having such high power, as long as it's at least >> priority and 0 hold so it can be used immediately.
 

Goldschuss

Apprentice
Joined
Mar 7, 2020
Messages
249
It would be a worse water cannon, less damage for more stamina and no synergy. Plus it doesn't have STAB like any of the water cannon users, which should not be underestimated. Anyway I now remember your post, good suggestion nap
 

Causation

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Joined
Nov 28, 2018
Messages
55
1) Replace Wrecked Farewell trait with a different and new second trait.
----This second trait would allow Zenoreth to ignore defensive buffs / offensive debuffs when attacking. So if there is a Yowlar with +def and + sp def, Zenoreth will hit the Yowlar as if it had no buffs. Alternately, have it ignore all enemy buffs, so it takes normal damage from buffed tems and does its regular damage to buffed tems.

This gives Zenoreth better returns for self buffing/allies buffing it. While it can't keep going forever in the same way Valash could, it could start getting really scary. Without ally support it is still reliably, but likely not overwhelming. 70 base offensive stat is good, but it isn't that good. Until a madness buff, anyway.
I like this, and I also have an idea to back it up. For ease of implementation, we can pick something that's already in the game. Why not give Zenoreth Mineral Crusher?

This gives Zeno a unique ability to be a crystal that isn't hard walled by earth types. Volgon uses this to great effect against opposing crystal and earth types, and that protects it fairly well, meaning tems of those types are not a sure-fire way to beat Volgon as the lake final boss. We know, from experience that this trait works, and that it's good. This trait works nicely with the "ignores defenses" idea that you're going with, while also being somewhat thematic, given that it's miners in Tucma that often use Zenoreth and its family to aid in their work.

----

An alternative trait could be a new one. It's basically just a better Mineral Crusher, but what if it just made Zeno's crystal moves unresisted? For now, I'll call it "Diamond Edge". In short, its effect could be that all types that resist crystal instead take 1.0x from it, but it has no effect on types weak to or neutral to crystal. This unresisted nature of its CSpikes makes Zeno an offensive threat that nothing can swap into.

To gain this benefit, the player has to give up Channeller. They lose the immediate power of Zeno's Spikes, as it then falls into a range of being weaker than both Tort and Myx Spikes. On the other hand, after an MBuff (which Zeno running this trait then becomes reliant on), it's a much bigger threat than the Channeller variant.
 

Rigaudon

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Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
109
To gain this benefit, the player has to give up Channeller. They lose the immediate power of Zeno's Spikes, as it then falls into a range of being weaker than both Tort and Myx Spikes. On the other hand, after an MBuff (which Zeno running this trait then becomes reliant on), it's a much bigger threat than the Channeller variant.
Yeah, this is a clean way to do it I think. This matches the goals of my concept. Channeler is specialized, new trait isnt but has less power.
 
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