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PVP Accessibility - A Huge Problem

offan

Rookie
Joined
Jan 18, 2020
Messages
48
With only one major island left and Matchmaking V2 coming up, it’s time to talk about what PVP needs to be successful and populated. In terms of balance and general QOL, PVP is in the best state it has ever been, yet the amount of people playing it is still tiny. If PVP is going to become a main component of the game, as advertised, a significant amount needs to be done to make it more friendly for new and existing players.

New Players:

Despite the game being out for over 18 months, a large portion of the active PVP population are players that picked up the game within the first few months. Hardly anyone new is entering the system, and that’s because it is simply way too time consuming to actually play PVP properly after you’ve finished the story.

SV autoscale is nowhere near enough when you have to train up 8000 TVs to even play the ladder, which takes 20 hours of pure, monotonous grind. Additionally, new players don’t know where to TV train, own the Temtem to help with TV training, have the knowledge of which TVs to train, or know where to find resources to help with these issues, which incurs even more time investment. On top of all of that, any mistakes are punished severely since they will result in a loss of hours of time. All of this combined creates a completely overwhelming barrier to entry that filters out the vast majority of potential players.

It’s unsurprising that people don’t buy or recommend the game for its PVP element when it takes so much time and effort to even play it at all.

Side Point - Streamers:

I love to make fun of people who stream leveling or TV training instead of playing the actual game, but it’s honestly the reality of what PVP looks like in Temtem. Want to try a unique team and need 5 Temtem trained? Sounds fun, but you need to run in circles for 10 hours before you can even test it, or spend a ton of cash that you probably don’t have.

Solution - Editor for Ladder:

With players already providing gear, techniques, and the Temtem themselves, there’s no reason not to allow them to set and alter TVs and SVs on ladder. This would make Temtem way more friendly to players interested in PVP, since after completing the story (an already big time investment), they would be able to jump into PVP, which is what they want to do. PVP itself is a huge grind, the amount of knowledge of Temtem necessary is enormous, so there’s no reason to add additional grind to even play it at all.

Allow players to edit TVs and SVs for ladder and the PVP scene will easily grow. This also has the benefit of scaled and unscaled play being the same, since currently forced 50SV makes ladder and off-ladder different, which makes practicing on ladder less effective.

It’s worth noting that a rental team system would also be very beneficial, but it’s not as important as an editor and could be its own entire post.

Existing Players:

Although this will hopefully be addressed in MMV2, it’s very important that rewards for playing PVP allow for reducing or even skipping the TV training and leveling requirements for getting Temtem ready for unscaled play. Right now, even if you have 10 million pansuns, you still have to spend an hour or more per Temtem leveling it up to max level, regardless of how much time you have invested in the game already.

If PVP activities rewarded the player with resources for unscaled PVP (Hacks, Growth Enhancers, Fruit), it would be a huge benefit to players transitioning from scaled to unscaled play. Activities like TV training and leveling only get in the way of players playing the game and instead just encourage them to play something else where they can have fun with their free time.

Also, existing players benefit from a ladder editor since they can freely experiment and test new ideas, leading to a more exciting ladder experience without the fear of losing hours of time to a failed concept. A Temtem editor for ladder strictly benefits everyone, and it would be huge for player retention.

Closing Thoughts:

With all the time you’ve spent recently on PVP QOL, balancing, and tournaments, it would be a shame if the PVP scene continued to be squashed by this unreasonable grind requirement to even participate. I sincerely hope that you consider making drastic changes, such as the ones outlined in this post, or the PVP scene will continue to struggle.
 
Joined
Nov 12, 2020
Messages
475
There should be a much faster way to TV train in the postgame after the final gauntlet / elite 4 challenge is done and whatever aftermath might be part of the main questline. We don't need full TV training for the first fights against dojo leaders while playing through the campaign normally, but long term content for the postgame of wherever this game's development is at (currently PvP & dojo rematches) does.

New PvP players have another problem that often goes understated: starting to TV train on a tem that turns out to not be very good for the intended team. That could easily be the whole team of eight not being good for a PvP team, which means the investment into somewhere between one to all eight of them was a waste of time and money.
 

Argurotoxus

Apprentice
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Messages
137
I'm coming out of the hole I've been in for a couple months now to support this.

Honestly, as much as I love Temtem and as fun as the battling is, I don't feel like I get to do enough battling. During Kisiwa I thought it was just a lack of new content/stale meta, but then Cipanku hit and Temtem still couldn't hold my interest for longer than ~3 weeks.

When I realized I'd spend every spare moment of free time I had during the week just trying to make money to breed/buy new Tems for PvP, and finally TV train those Tems (and I'd even use fruit for about half the TVs), only to be rewarded by logging in on the weekend to ~5-10 minute queue times against the same 2-3 people I always queued against....That's just not enough effort:fun ratio. I know there have been some changes to prevent rematches and the like but all they've accomplished are even more grueling queue times after the first match. The problem here isn't with the matchmaking system, it's that the pool of players isn't there due to the massive barrier of entry.

With how long it took and how little free time I had, the last team I built ended up being completely obsolete by the time I finished it since it took me about 2 weeks to finally breed/buy everything and train it up. The meta had already shifted and my core idea was now bad. So back to the drawing board? Another week of grinding? Nah, that was it for me.

I love Temtem but without major changes to the PvP system it's just going to be a game I'll finish the story on and hang up for good. In my opinion, for just ladder battling, I don't think I should have to spend more than an hour to get a team online. A full team of 8.

Now, I understand the more long-term goals have to exist for the game to thrive and not just be a battle sim. I think that tournaments (maybe not all, but, probably most), dojo wars when those come out, the "battle frontier" when that comes out, and things of that nature can work to fill that need of having to grind a team. But ladder? Naw. The grind for ladder is just too much.

Really great innovative battle system. Unfortunately, with how long it takes me to even get to play it/experiment with it...I'd rather just play other strategy games that have more respect for my time.
 

LanAkou

Rookie
Joined
Jul 28, 2021
Messages
2
I've been playing for just under a couple months now.

The temtem economy is in shambles. It is absolutely horrible for new players. The advantage older players have cannot be overstated, and the absolute grindfest that is training takes too damn long.

Now that tournaments are out, spending ~20 hours to TV train an entire team of imperfect tems seems like a huge waste of time in the long run. Yes, I could TV train some imperfect temtem and start training on ladder (and in fact I have) but it is very clear to me that perfects are heavily encouraged.

The cost of breeding is insane. ~60k is the minimum you will spend getting a perfect tem yourself. You could also use that money to buy 1-2 perfect tems... and at ~50k a week, I'll have all the perfects I need in just over a year. It's expected that you'll sell the extra tem you bred, but there are so few buyers out there and so many breeders that it's just not realistic. I'm sitting on so many perfect eggs now, just taking up space in my box. I've heard you can get plenty of breeding items from raid layers, but after the nerf to rewards it has been very difficult to find a group. LFG has been a very mixed bag since the difficulty increase. Besides, PvP players may not necessarily want to play layers in the first place.

Even if all of that wasn't a problem, TV training would still be a huge issue since, as mentioned, it's about 20 hours of some of the most monotonous gameplay there is just to get your perfect temtem up to snuff. Once you do all that, time to ladder up. You can finally play some temtem.

I'd say that, currently, the game is downright hostile to new players trying to break into endgame. I mention all of this not ust to complain (I am, after all, still doing my weekly log-ins, slowly selling my perfect eggs, and TV training with the best of them, currently up to 14 PvP viable tems) but to paint a picture of what temtem asks of new players. I started playing with 3 other long time pokemon PvPers and I am the only one who remains.
 

Bacon4ever

Apprentice
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
158
For tv training what if there was a moderately uncommon drop item that is 1000 tvs but you can pick what those tvs go into so that item = 1 full tv trained tem. Also can be 500 tv item that would be a half tv trained tem. Those would be a good item worth like 10k for the 500 one and 20k for the full tv training item. Would a decent reward that could be added to lairs, fishing, etc... so instead of tv training you can be doing lairs and other content to get items that would fully tv train a tem. Which would make it a little more convenient to get into pvp.

Something like this may not sove the problem but may help some.
 

way2blaster

Rookie
Joined
Jan 23, 2021
Messages
42
i speak as some one that started at the end of kisuawa, 1-2 months before cipanku. it was took a lot of time to get the initial 8 tems ready fore pvp. but after that the gold provided by ladder in the 800-1200 tmr let me buy perfect tems. or gave me the funds to fruit tems to replace the ones that did not work. before i became a dad i reached 1655 tmr and started with funding perfect tems. so took me about 4-6 moths to get to a place i could do tournaments.

that being said I feel/worry reducing the time fore creating the perfect tems with "perfect" spreads directly cuts into the longevity of the game.

With the action house i think cost of buying perfect tems will start dropping. with raids/rematches and ladder funds i think buying the perfects will be no problem. so fore breeders to get there worth the next step will be perfect bred tems and tv-trained to be able to ask more pansuns in the Action house. (after that it will require little effort to tailor it)
this will cause nr of tems on the AH to go up again. because breeders now have to split time between breeding and training. this circle will be the economy .
players with less time will buy a split of trained and non trained perfects.
players with lots of free time will buy un trained perfects and sell them fore profit.
 

Pluto_Nium

Apprentice
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
208
I started out when public beta started, and let me just say things then were far worse. the game has seen countless improvements since then, but the main problem stays: too much grind required for pvp. I struggled really hard with this, it took me more than 6 months hours to have like half a box of perfects (I don't have too much time to play) just to find a new meta when I finally finished, forcing me to re-tv again. After Kisiwa I got lucky with radar lumas and was able to fix this problem by just buying tv training and levelling services, if not for this I would have stopped playing the game by now. The grind really is insane, levelling and tv training takes soo much of time, and with every change of the meta you need to change your TVs again, which is again really time consuming. The first 8 months I played this game I spent time almost exclusively to prepare to play PvP, but constant meta changes and needed re-tving destroyed it for me so I took a gamble and went luma hunting after radards came out, in the hopes this would give me enough pansuns to end those problems. luckily it worked out for me and now I'm just spending all my pansuns to avoid the grind. But for newer players it's horrible and I would not recommend any of my friends to get into PvP now because of this. I really don't see why grind is still basically the central element of this game. Grind for me means you are forced to play the game in a very uninteractive way that wears you out before you can even start playing PvP. I'm sure Crema has something in mind to fix this, but I think it should be prioritised from now on. Because if this is fixed, it's easily my favorite game around currently.
 

Rigaudon

Rookie
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
99
i give things to new players all the time. Information, tems, straight up a chunk of pansuns. All that to say: I am especially familiar with what PVP-aspiring newbies struggle with.

For a new player to seamlessly get into PVP, the running "cost" is 100k+. This is to afford PVE tems (tukai, oceara) and their team of 8 autoscalers.

I say 100k because it includes the cost of fruits to speed up the process of the worst TV training (sp atk, def, speed). Each tem is 20-25k to fruit fully, but some TVs are much slower than others. If you don't fruit at all? It may be unoptimal, since every week you arent doing dojos you are giving up 50k of free money. So you have to make sure you don't spend more than 50k to hit dojos up that week, but if you don't reach your goals you actually disadvantage yourself. I also just...dont want aspiring PvPers to be required to go through that. Its boring, tedious, and demotivating.

That isn't including the information cliff. It costs 100k+ to do things optimally. What I mean by "optimally" is that you know what you need, you truly understand what tems you want, you know ranked even has autoscaling, and you know how to TV or have found a reputable source for TVs. You also know to get PVE-only tems that make things go faster (spreader tukai to TV faster, oceara for levels). You know where the TV spots are.

None of this is properly introduced ingame. Without somebody directly guiding a new player, several key mistakes get made. Maybe their team is built entirely wrong and has to be remade. A lot of people don't even know that PVP autoscales so they already are buying perfects. "I bought adoroboros, gyalis and hedgine. What should my other slots be?" There is always something that wasn't done right and now they've lost hours of their time doing something they put up with just to get to "the fun part."

If you want to change your clothes or hair, you honestly can't afford to if you want to PVP as a priority. The margins are too thin when you first start out. 20k is an entire tems TVs (excluding HP). Having non-tedious fun (vs. casual grind) requires a good chunk of money. Getting into the "fun" part of the game for people also requires a good chunk of money. People who don't have a lot of free time also have to choose between other PVE gameplay options and TVs.

For a new player to get a team of 8, 2 pve tems, and to then fruit those tems for everything except HP? 200k. 200k is 4 weeks worth of dojos...and I don't want to imagine how many painful hours of freeteming that much value would translate to.

I understand that economically gating things behind the effort of grinding is beneficial. Perfects probably shouldn't become cheaper/easier. I have voiced my opinion that things need to have a certain level of value and how I think that should happen.

But why are TVs gated behind this grind wall? Those dont really have a value to other people. There is no TV economy. You cant officially sell or flip that effort, and TVs are often catered specifically to an individual. They are the most grueling part of getting started, and even though I'm socially active I haven't played a PVP ladder game in a month. Why? Because it means Osukai grass again. Counting individual fruits and tallying them. Just a whole song and dance that I'm tired of.

I decided to take a soft break from Temtem a little while back. I literally prefer to give my money away to new players than go through with the process myself, in the hopes that they stay and keep the PVP torch burning.

I'm not the only one who cant stand another minute of the saipat grass.

When discussing this earlier, Offan said "temtem is grind to play" and that is a sadly accurate statement. Grind before tou can have fun. And for what?

The time cost of TVs drain the soul out of old players and intimidate new ones for arguably no gain. Fruits are a PVP tax when PVP is one of the most addicting/fun/balanced/rewarding parts of this game. It is a great way for players to engage with and even befriend other players. PVP should be as reasonably smooth as possible to get people hooked on the game.

We have motivation problems/long queue timers/population issues in tournaments. Why keep mechanics that perpetuate these problems?
 
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Pluto_Nium

Apprentice
Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
208
Rigaudons post brings up an interesting question: PvP is grind to play. I very much agree to this.

But this model of locking content excludes all players who do not have time to grind, maybe have a very demanding job, or a family or various other reasons. The PvP content is walled off by a necessary time investment of at least 100 hours, probably way more until you can meaningfully compete in PvP.

I understand that the temtem devs and also a large part of the community have a very strict "no pay to win" philosophy, but if it is instead "grind to win" one can make start aksing the question how much one hour of playing is worth for oneself.

I myself have to conclude that I'd rather spend some money, which I have, than an excessive amount of time, which I do not have in order to access PvP content in this game. I do not want to advocate for the implementation of P2W in Temtem, but in the current state I would prefer it over the necessary grind. I'd rather pay 100$ than grinding 100+ hours! If the grind is reduced, I will hopefully change my stance again on this matter.

But please note: locking content behind grind (=time) is imo just as bad as locking it behind money. Not all people have time, not all people have money. Make it fair for all and allow both groups to play the game the way they prefer. I am convinced PvP can serve as core element of this game and make it very popular if done right.
 

Rigaudon

Rookie
Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
99
Added note since I was helping another new player today.

There is always something the game does or fails to explain that makes people (especially new players) spend hours of their life, unnecessarily, on a task that they didn't even find enjoyable. It is normally through a grind that wasn't even required to uphold the integrity of value somewhere in the game. Like grinding attack TVs in the Ganki grass.
 

way2blaster

Rookie
Joined
Jan 23, 2021
Messages
42
@Pluto_Nium with a heavy hart I can tell you. that the game is not jet finished. and i'm sure (and I personally hate this) there at some point will be a cash shop every mmo usualy starts doing that at some point

so far Crema has been a dream retreat fore gamers. time spend played= progression gained. the way alot of gamers like it.

but i think there will be something like pay X-real cash fore a premium "pheromone" while active you have 10x more TV's or exp or what ever.

personally I hope instead of that... there will be a alternate way to tv train your tems or fun contend that rewards fruit and candy. maybe even the option of growing fruits or making candy in your house. paying to skip contend is just robing you of playing a game you like. instead i hope crema finds alternate ways fore players to have fun. progress there tems/teams/pansuns and/or appearance.
 

alexshi2015

Rookie
Joined
Jun 17, 2021
Messages
81
well done and thanks for putting it all together. As a player of 600+ hours I strongly agree that there has to be an easier entry for the new players.
Any mechanisms that grant new players free TV or fun TV training other than the grind.
I don't care if Crema gives those who just finish the story 100x each type of fruits, or XP/TV x10 gain bonus.
A few of my friends have started playing temtem but they stopped playing now because TV training is boring...
 

TinFoilMkIV

Rookie
Joined
Aug 13, 2021
Messages
3
Solution - Editor for Ladder:
You did a much better job than I summarizing all of this. I'd looked through but had not seen this thread, so I'll add in, I think you're right on with the actual issues. I'm not sure your solution is exactly ideal. Granted, I'd certainly like that. I love being able to experiment more easily and the like. I have a feeling one of the goals for high end pvp is for the highest end to require a significant investment to really get there.

That said, I'd be happy to be proven wrong by the devs and have them implement something like that.

But for real, the wall just to enter PvP with any remote hope of winning at all, is pretty damn huge.
 

Dapper Dinosaur

Apprentice
Joined
May 19, 2021
Messages
112
I've convinced three friends to try Temtem because they are Pokemon fans.

Of the three, two of them have either completely quit or are only logging on to do one radar a week (and hating every second of it), because the PVP takes so long to enter that their patience for the monotony in the process is already completely gone even though I shot them through the campaign at a blistering pace with my hurrywart oceara and other level 72s to minimize the time investment. I have also been there to help them with any breeding projects they start, and lending them my temtem to do dojo rematches with while I coach them on discord. I'm doing a massive amount of the work for them and it's still such a slog that their interest is just gone.

Something needs to be done. The game shouldn't force its players to go through a massive burden to merely start playing the most important aspect of it. In fact, EVERYTHING in this game is far too much of a grind. Radars take anywhere from 4 to 10+ hours depending on which temtem it is, the freetem reward checkpoints are utterly absurd, lairs were nerfed so drastically hard because of like 6 people being able to spend their whole life on the game farming so now they give effectively no hotfixes ever, the campaign has a RIDICULOUS amount of unskippable tamers, and it just goes on and on and on. You have to treat this game like a damn job if you want to actually accomplish anything.
 
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