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The attractivity of lairs

Ruler

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Dec 1, 2020
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At first i have to say that lairs are really awesome. They are a lot of fun to play and really well thought out. There might be room for some improvements like for example improving the teamwork required to do them and to reduce the amount of RNG at the begin of a lair run but overall lairs are really solid. This post therefore wont focus on potentital improvements for the lair itself but at the attractivity. What do i mean by that?

Well, the rewards of lairs mostly build up on the fact that you need to posess an own catched luma. This is because your primarly playing them to get telo hacks or ETCs. Both are only usable/worth used on OT Lumas (or on the mythic itself). It gets problematic when you factor in that newer players might have to catch a luma by themselves in order to see lairs as an attractive activity. I can understand players that just dont want to play it, because they realized that they are forced to luma hunt for multiple hours before doing the lair gets worth it to do.
Here they face multiple problems:
-Theres no visible set time needed to obtain a luma. It can be that your lucky and you get your own OT pretty fast, but you can also get really unlucky and farm a lot of time. This view might scare off players to go threw the hunt itself just do to lairs.
-Radars are complete RNG and if your besides that not lucky to see your favorite luma in saipark you will have to farm lumas at full odds to obtain your favorite tem that you will see worth it to hack up with telos or to use an ETC on.

If i am completely honest as a beginner i wouldve quit the game after realizing what i have to do first in order to enjoy grinding lair rewards (i didnt quit but just because after hundreds of hours i finally own an OT luma i want to perfect). And in fact a lot of players thinking like me already quit the game. I think you could do a survey and most of the players left playing the game are people that only play for OT and dont have a problem with the grind and/or RNG. This shouldnt happen.

I will make an example here: Warframe has a lot of success, the game is challenging at first and hard to learn. But at some point the devs made a design decision to keep the upcoming content very easy. This resulted in the playerbase wanting to play challenging content quitting the game. Now when they make a survey in their playerbase the majority is saying they want easy content. This way people who like to play harder content will never have a chance to come back into the game. Now instead of fullfilling the needs of both types of players they just focus on one type because their surveys are impacted by their previous design decisions. This means they loose out on money in shop sales, because the player count is lower then it could be. Please dont make the same mistake. The goal should instead be to find a good balance.


In conclusion: The reward structure of lairs itself isnt bad at all but the way it forces you to meet the requirements is.

As a result i will use this thread to mention again that lumas finally need to be free from the restriction. It doesnt matter how you achieve that in detail but there finally needs to be a way for people to buy the stuff they are looking for, while allowing them to work on it. This way people will see a clear way on how to fulfill the requirements (their favorite luma might have a clear price tag and they can decide themselves whether they want to try their luck by hunting or by selling other stuff/farming currency in order to obtain it). On top it would free them from beeing dependent on radar RNG or luma saipark week. All this would lead to more people having an interest in playing the lairs and as a result keeping the playerbase up higher.

Lairs are so much fun, its worth it to force players into playing it. Dont scare newer players away from it by demanding requirements which for some players might seem unfun to achieve (because they are hell a grindy and/or purely based on RNG).

Edit: This one goes to the more experienced players:
I know there are some players out there that really love to farm lumas themselves (now probably the majority, because the others already left). You might not have a problem with the requirements needed in order to have fun with lairs and its rewards. But theres also a large playerbase out there which might view the activity you have fun with unfun. There are players which have/will have a lot of fun playing mainly PvP for example but they still want to participate in lairs with friends and have fun with the rewards. Please dont exclude this playerbase by thinking selfish. We all profit from a bigger playerbase.
 
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Silber

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This is because your primarly playing them to get telo hacks or ETCs
I disagree with this. They also reward DNA strands which are attractive for 3 reasons:

1) Breeding
2) Some breeders accept them at almost full NPC purchase value as part of trades when buying Temtem
3) You can sell them and make a profit

And they reward WYW Coins. These can also be sold to other players at a profit, or exchanged for cosmetics, pheromones, and Pansuns, the average reward of which also provides a profit.

They're also a fun activity when done with friends, which I think shouldn't be underestimated, although I recognize that that hinges on having friends to play with and also being good enough to enjoy it instead of just getting frustrated.


Reading the rest of your thread it feels like either an excuse to push the topic you're actually interested in: Reducing Luma restrictions. OR alternatively it feels like your perception of the Lairs themselves is skewed by your own interests in the game.

I do agree with one thing at the core of what you're saying though: Making it easier to trade lumas would indeed increase the value of Lair rewards and make running them more worthwhile. That is undeniable. The only question is sorting out the overall impact of that on the balance and economy of the game as a whole.
 
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This one goes to the more experienced players:
I know there are some players out there that really love to farm lumas themselves (now probably the majority, because the others already left).
This was possibly true for a while until the Cipanku update because of the activity fluctuations that usually happen with games that get updated over time, especially when updates have already been promised to come with specific content.

And in fact a lot of players thinking like me already quit the game. I think you could do a survey and most of the players left playing the game are people that only play for OT and dont have a problem with the grind and/or RNG. This shouldnt happen.
The luma part shouldn't be a significant amount of the playerbase. The grinding as a whole is probably the reason for the majority of players that give up. This game has a lot of activities that demand a lot of time and unreliable probability to get a profit, especially the most profitable repeatable activities currently available. Many of the most profitable repeatable activities also have high barriers for entry, such as breeding and TV training necessary for dojo rematches.
 

Ruler

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They also reward DNA strands which are attractive for 3 reasons
Make a survey about who runs lairs for DNA strands and WYW coins and i guess most of the people would say they mainly play it because of the telo hacks and ETCs. People have even done fishing (which is awful btw.) just for the telo hacks and ETCs. But maybe they also fished for the furniture, like a table, but i highly doubt it. Therefore theres no way that DNA strands and WYW coins are the main incentive for people to run lairs.

They're also a fun activity when done with friends, which I think shouldn't be underestimated, although I recognize that that hinges on having friends to play with and also being good enough to enjoy it instead of just getting frustrated.
For sure, but my thread focussed on the reward system of lairs and how it builds up on previous conditions. This is because activity by players in an MMO are driven by the rewards to obtain. Again, people even did fishing instead of more fun activitys just because of the rewards.

Reading the rest of your thread it feels like either an excuse to push the topic you're actually interested in: Reducing Luma restrictions. OR alternatively it feels like your perception of the Lairs themselves is skewed by your own interests in the game.
"I know there are some players out there that really love to farm lumas themselves (now probably the majority, because the others already left). You might not have a problem with the requirements needed in order to have fun with lairs and its rewards. But theres also a large playerbase out there which might view the activity you have fun with unfun. There are players which have/will have a lot of fun playing mainly PvP for example but they still want to participate in lairs with friends and have fun with the rewards. Please dont exclude this playerbase by thinking selfish. We all profit from a bigger playerbase." I knew you will show up and tell me something like this.

The only question is sorting out the overall impact of that on the balance and economy of the game as a whole.
My thread had no intention to implement this change in order to drive up the market. As someone already told me in the forums when changes where made regarding the restriction of non OT Lumas: The market cant be the main driving point of decision making in an early access title. Thats why i left the market completely out of my thought process here and stopped talking about the market. But now your telling me the opposite of the argument that was made in the past. Almost feels like arguments can be turned around as much as you want as long as it fits your interests.
 

Ruler

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The luma part shouldn't be a significant amount of the playerbase. The grinding as a whole is probably the reason for the majority of players that give up. This game has a lot of activities that demand a lot of time and unreliable probability to get a profit, especially the most profitable repeatable activities currently available. Many of the most profitable repeatable activities also have high barriers for entry, such as breeding and TV training necessary for dojo rematches.
But my thread was about the build up of reward structure regarding lairs. I knew there are other problems regarding the grinding in general but that wasnt what i focussed on in this thread.
And in fact there was a huge shitstorm at the time when the luma restrictions were introduced (its to be expected that people left, when they wrote sth like "im done with this game"). Iiirc tsukki even mentioned that in a stream aswell. Now the problem worsened because of the reward structure which is what i wanted to point out here.
 

Silber

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My thread had no intention to implement this change in order to drive up the market. As someone already told me in the forums when changes where made regarding the restriction of non OT Lumas: The market cant be the main driving point of decision making in an early access title. Thats why i left the market completely out of my thought process here and stopped talking about the market. But now your telling me the opposite of the argument that was made in the past. Almost feels like arguments can be turned around as much as you want as long as it fits your interests.
Saying that avoiding driving into a wall shouldn't be the main driving point of driving home from work and saying that it's important to consider not driving into a wall are different things though.

These things aren't mutually exclusive. I still think the market and the capital of rich players and market players can't and shouldn't be the main driving force of decision making in early access. Decisions absolutely shouldn't be made just to preserve or just to spite rich players. But obviously making a major change like what you're suggesting can't be done without considering it at all. Imho hurting the bottom line of the already wealthy is far less important and less likely to be damaging than increasing it, given the kind of people involved and the funds some have right now.
 
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the rewards of lairs mostly build up on the fact that you need to posess an own catched luma. This is because your primarly playing them to get telo hacks or ETCs. Both are only usable/worth used on OT Lumas (or on the mythic itself). It gets problematic when you factor in that newer players might have to catch a luma by themselves in order to see lairs as an attractive activity.

I can understand players that just dont want to play it, because they realized that they are forced to luma hunt for multiple hours before doing the lair gets worth it to do.
I agree that the main reason to do lairs is telomere hacks and egg techs. They're much more valuable than a few thousand pansuns worth of DNA which can be bought in the breeding center or some coins that are usually another small bounty of pansuns.

No one should be forced to play lairs. They're as optional as fishing, FreeTem, etc. The problem is everyone wants to make more money and it's the shiny new way to do it in addition to all those so it better be worth the effort.

I brought up the problem with grind overall because it relates to the difficulty of getting OT lumas: radars are rewarded from dojo rematches (unless you want to go full odds, which is a worse grind), dojo rematches mean you need to build at least eight good tems. Building those tems has a high barrier for entry which gates a large portion of the playerbase out of it, especially thanks to how much time TV training takes and the luck needed to catch good SVs to work with.

The breeding part can be skipped by buying hatches from other players, but that costs pansuns players in this situation wouldn't be able to afford at least eight times.

In short:
Min-max tems more accessible for the playerbase at large -> dojo rematches can be won -> getting radars -> getting OT lumas -> telomere hacks & egg TCs can be used
 

Ruler

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Min-max tems more accessible for the playerbase at large -> dojo rematches can be won -> getting radars -> getting OT lumas -> telomere hacks & egg TCs can be used
I agree completely with your point. But this line can be improved in my eyes. Instead of getting OT Lumas it could be called "getting lumas". OT Lumas should definetly be something special to players. They can have benefits compared to non OTs. A good example is the increased price for name change if your not the OT. In the same way non OT Lumas could require you to invest more to up an SV. But completely taking it away hurts freedom in general. Thats because there are different types of players, some like to hunt lumas themselves, some like to avoid it and do other activities in order to obtain what they aim for. By telling the second part of players "your freedom isnt existent you are forced to hunt yourself" you will scare players away that dont like to play the game that way. The best way is to find a compromise where both types of players are happy with in order to boost the playerbase as high as possible (remember the warframe example i did). Its never correct to say 1 path is the correct one. The perfect path always lays somewhere in between.
 

Ruler

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I still think the market and the capital of rich players and market players can't and shouldn't be the main driving force of decision making in early access. Decisions absolutely shouldn't be made just to preserve or just to spite rich players. But obviously making a major change like what you're suggesting can't be done without considering it at all. Imho hurting the bottom line of the already wealthy is far less important and less likely to be damaging than increasing it, given the kind of people involved and the funds some have right now.
Thats correct. And to be honest idc about my pansuns really. What should i buy with it? Thats why i now care mostly about a fair game experience. My intention was to show that theres a lack of respecting different types of players in the build up of the reward system. Currently as it stands 1 type of player is heavily favored and the other type of player may be turned off, because the activities the other type may find fun must not be fun for the other one. For this players the requirement of having fun with lair rewards arent the same as for the persons which like to hunt lumas themselves. Luma hunting may be fun for you, but it maybe isnt for another person. Thats why my whole thread was about pointing out that there should be a way which complements both types of players in order to let the game become an even greater success.

You can for example give OTs an edge. Something that makes them easier and cheaper to work on compared to non OTs. Thats totally fine, but completely denying other player personalities the entry of having fun in the reward system isnt the correct appraoch in my eyes. I simply wanted to raise awareness that this topic should be dealt with. Therefore i dont really want to go into the specifics (the market topic you brought up for example). Thats something the design team should deal with.
 
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Stripclub

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I disagree with this. They also reward DNA strands which are attractive for 3 reasons:

1) Breeding
2) Some breeders accept them at almost full NPC purchase value as part of trades when buying Temtem
3) You can sell them and make a profit
you invest 2.5k to participate in a lair run and you can get "aggressive dna" which costs 1k at the vendor (sells for 500? not sure) other players will buy it for 800. thats a horrible reward. if we get multiple dna strands i´d be fine with the current reward structure but as it is right now getting dna is just way worse and in terms of value arent even comparable to hacks.
 

RustyLarry

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you invest 2.5k to participate in a lair run and you can get "aggressive dna" which costs 1k at the vendor (sells for 500? not sure) other players will buy it for 800. thats a horrible reward. if we get multiple dna strands i´d be fine with the current reward structure but as it is right now getting dna is just way worse and in terms of value arent even comparable to hacks.
I feel like they could change single stat DNA strands to reward 2 instead of only one - would even out the reward x cost of the run most of the time, since often you get coins together with the strands.
 

Tara

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So, it seems like your whole point is that players will not want to participate in lairs unless they have OT lumas. I don't agree at all.

- The main reason to do the lairs is to get the Mythical tem. For that reason, most players will probably try to complete the lair at least once.
- Even after getting the Mythical, many players will probably try to go through the lair again (after a week or more) to try and get a Mythical with better stats or a different trait.
- Players that don't have OT lumas can still use the telomere hacks on the Mythical.
- You don't need OT to use an Egg Technique Course, so you can use those on a non-OT luma if you want to. Besides, you can sell ETCs for a good amount of pansuns.
- You can also get DNA strands and Wishyouwell coins as a reward.
- Some players will go through the lairs just for fun.
 
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Ruler

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So, it seems like your whole point is that players will not want to participate in lairs unless they have OT lumas.
No, you get me wrong. I wanted to say that OT Lumas play a huge role besides the mythic (thats why i mentioned the mythic in my main comment aswell). The mythic isnt very attractive to hack early on but i will get to that in a response to another of your arguments.

The main reason to do the lairs is to get the Mythical tem. For that reason, most players will probably try to complete the lair at least once.
Thats true and people will most likely want to complete it once a week because of this. But in my eyes lairs are so much fun, it should be attractive to play them more then once a week.

Even after getting the Mythical, many players will probably try to go through the lair again (after a week or more) to try and get a Mythical with better stats or a different trait.
Thats on one part true. Players will want to perfect their mythical. But on the other side you wont hack the first one you got. It will most likely take 4-5+ weeks on average until you get one with such nice stats that you want to hack it. Every hack you invest on one where your stat roll can be better is a waste if you get one with slightly better stats a week later.

You don't need OT to use an Egg Technique Course, so you can use those on a non-OT luma if you want.
Who does that? Its a clear waste on non perfect non OT ones. Its like wasting 100k+ on something you cant work on. Its like gifting away free pansuns.

You can also get DNA strands and Wishyouwell coins as a reward
For sure if 30-40 mins for 2k profit on average seems worth it to you. But thats only if you manage to finish it (a lot of players play unorganized they fail often). For me 2k in this time isnt an incentive to run lairs.

Some players will go through the lairs just for fun
Thats also true. Some may do it for fun, but the large part of a MMO community in general plans its daily activities by chasing rewards in the most efficient way. Thats why you usually find tons of videos on youtube with a good oamount of viewers related on how to level up your tems in the fastest way possible, how to do freetem in the most efficient way and how to cheese dojo rematches.
 
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Cheware

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Thats on one part true. Players will want to perfect their mythical. But on the other side you wont hack the first one you got. It will most likely take 4-5+ weeks on average until you get one with such nice stats that you want to hack it. Every hack you invest on one where your stat roll can be better is a waste if you get one with slightly better stats a week later.
Well with this argument, you'll never use Telomere Hacks anyway
 

Ruler

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Well with this argument, you'll never use Telomere Hacks anyway
Please elaborate it.
Usually when the market would work the tems value would aswell be set based on its SVs. Thats basic market theory. It means that if a hack would be worth like 5-10k, a tem with 1 SV higher would be worth 5-10k more. Using a hack on one is therefore not a waste since you wouldnt loose money.
For the mythic this isnt the case since its untrade + you earn them much easier then lumas and for the market this currently isnt the case since tems are pretty hard restricted and stats dont matter, only ferts matter there currently.
On OTs you usually want to use a telo hack anyways if they have good/really good stats since its way harder to earn them then 1 mythic a week.
I dont get your point here.
 

Cheware

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I dont get your point here.
The point was, if you refrain from using a Hack on a Tem because you can get a better one next time, then you'll probably never use it because you can always get one better the week after. Well, unless you are extremely lucky and get a perfect Tyranak - in which case you don't even need Hacks at all
 

Fikule

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Since when are we doing Lairs for rewards? I was doing them for fun ?
Pretty much. I have two OT lumas I never went looking for sat in my box, not dropped any hacks on them though. I'm running through lairs because I like that it's a repeatable content that is engaging.

But I also have the long term view that they don't have enough content that costs pansuns right now that aren't purely cosmetic. They essentially have Perfects and that's it. So... I have nothing else to actually spend pansuns on.

I don't do FreeTem, or post office, or koish. Just weekly dojos. I still have more pansuns than I know what to do with. I don't think they can just make everything a pansun gain rather than a sink.
 

Cheware

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I don't do FreeTem, or post office, or koish. Just weekly dojos. I still have more pansuns than I know what to do with. I don't think they can just make everything a pansun gain rather than a sink.
At one point, a Pansun Sink will be mandatory. Money can't endlessly grow.
That's partially why I was surprised that once again with Lairs, you can't use your own consumables. Of course that may make the Lairs cheese-able, but at least you'd buy consumables and that may be a first step to remove some Pansuns from the game.
Okay maybe not the possibility to use all 99 full Revive per Lair, but maybe they should allow to bring X (2, 5, 10?) of each into Lairs.
 

Canvas

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You spend 2.5k with hopes to get ANY reward, where you're dependant on the RNG and skills of four other people.

I've lost about 20k (8 runs) just on 17/18 jewels. The fact you get nothing for an unfinished run, or cant even initiate the final battle with a handicap for using less jewels is just terrible. Having another pansun sink is good and all, but make the time worth investing into.

Something,that Crema fails to understand should be a priority,making players want to invest time and feel rewarded for it, not lock everything behind RNG, FOMO mechanics and a full time job's worth of time invested regardless.
 

Ruler

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At one point, a Pansun Sink will be mandatory. Money can't endlessly grow.
This is kinda offtopic to the original idea of the thread but i want to say sth regarding this point.
I am actually surprised an actual money sink isnt already in the game. Money sinks are mandatory in order to control market prices and the economy. What happens if there are no pansun sinks? Stuff inflates because people have more buying power and devs loose the control over the market.
Now when it comes to certain items on the market the argument often is that they should be easier accessable and a lot of people were happy that for example luma prices crashed after the restriction because now they are affordable. While i do like them to be accessible aswell, i dont think dropping them by unnecessary restrictions in an MMO was a good move. Instead crema couldve dropped them by forcing people into buying things they loose money with in order to effectively remove money from the game (maybe a house worth 1 million that gives you upgrades or a special digital tem that costs like 1 million but can only be bought and is acc bound for example). When the money gets removed the prices drop by nature, because theres less buying power. Therefore im kinda baffled that theres no real pansun sink in the game. Even trading goes without any taxes.
Imagine if trading would have 5-10% taxes, we speak of 50-100k getting removed from the market everytime someone does a 1 million trade.
Because this is not happening we have people complaining about prices beeing to high or unaffordable for the casual player and people not knowing where to spend their money on since they have way to much.
 
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Canvas

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This is kinda offtopic to the original idea of the thread but i want to say sth regarding this point.
I am actually surprised an actual money sink isnt already in the game. Money sinks are mandatory in order to control market prices and the economy. What happens if there are no pansun sinks? Stuff inflates because people have more buying power and devs loose the control over the market.
Now when it comes to certain items on the market the argument often is that they should be easier accessable and a lot of people were happy that for example luma prices crashed after the restriction because now they are affordable. While i do like them to be accessible aswell, i dont think dropping them by unnecessary restrictions in an MMO was a good move. Instead crema couldve dropped them by forcing people into buying things they loose money with in order to effectively remove money from the game (maybe a house worth 1 million that gives you upgrades or a special digital tem that costs like 1 million but can only be bought and is acc bound for example). When the money gets removed the prices drop by nature, because theres less buying power. Therefore im kinda baffled that theres no real pansun sink in the game. Even trading goes without any taxes.
Imagine if trading would have 5-10% taxes, we speak of 50-100k getting removed from the market everytime someone does a 1 million trade.
Because this is not happening we have people complaining about prices beeing to high or unaffordable for the casual player and people not knowing where to spend their money on since they have way to much.
Money sinks currently:
-Housing
-Clothing
-Saipark
-Breeding (if you go yolo)
-Teleports
-Lairs

Did i miss any?

Edit: I would also like to add these money sinks affect the average player much more harshly than the established wealthier players.
 

Fikule

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Money sinks currently:
-Housing
-Clothing
-Saipark
-Breeding (if you go yolo)
-Teleports
-Lairs

Did i miss any?

Edit: I would also like to add these money sinks affect the average player much more harshly than the established wealthier players.
The first three have zero impact if you're only after progression content.

Teleport is designed to tax the rich players (woo?)

This leaves Lairs and Breeding. For me, I got 6 Temtem via breeding and then did Dojos (using two max level story tem). From there my pansuns were basically set for life.

So, breed 6 Temtem, print money? Seems like a pretty low bar.

Also, there's a Freetem guide for getting 97k pansuns this week if you'd really like to buy some perfects. Honestly I may just have a different preconception of what "poor" is in this game.
 

Cheware

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I've lost about 20k (8 runs) just on 17/18 jewels. The fact you get nothing for an unfinished run, or cant even initiate the final battle with a handicap for using less jewels is just terrible. Having another pansun sink is good and all, but make the time worth investing into.
Yeah, had the case once of ending at 17/18 jewels and not being even able to fight Tyranak at least to see how he's like.
I really think the 18/18 should be required for Tyranak's eggs. Any lower score should allow you to fight him and at least get the normal rewards (ie all of the pool except the egg).

What that would do :
- Allow you to fight against Tyranak and make something out of the run, even though you (or your mates) struggled through your lines. Would avoid the "yeah, this run is obviously fucked up, let's leave and retry".
- Would allow people not caring about Tyranak to have an easier time doing/trying lairs
- Would make pick-up lairs a bit more profitable than basically gambling

Because this is not happening we have people complaining about prices beeing to high or unaffordable for the casual player and people not knowing where to spend their money on since they have way to much.
Exactly. And the more they wait before implementing a correct pansun sink, the more difficult it will be to solve the issue later. There is no point in implementing a feature that costs you 1million if any player has 10m sitting in his bank.

I guess the potential tax on Auction House should be a good start. But I really feel like the Pansun Sink could already exist within consumables, if only those consumables were not impossible to use absolutely everywhere in this game except during outworld content...
 

Wolfguarde

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I honestly feel like this is a non-issue, OP. Lumas and Tyranak aren't the only options for ETC/TH use. Best? Yes, certainly. But that isn't anywhere near enough incentive to remove the TH restriction on lumas. Especially now that those items are getting a lot easier to get. Telomere hacks are already a lot easier to get with the addition of just one new piece of weekly content. ETCs are now obtainable without having to engage with the cancer that is the fishing weekly grind. What was originally incredibly rare is incrementally becoming... well, just rare. Supply is starting to stabilise, and as it does, the emphasis on only using those items on lumas and other one-offs will ease off.

Even disregarding that, though, the instant THs become usable on anything (especially lumas) that isn't OT, RMT and botting will take off in a way that Crema isn't going to be able to fix. Nothing is worth that happening.
 
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