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The Dojo Problem

splaashed

Rookie
Joined
Aug 24, 2020
Messages
62
So i saw that the Prices of Perfect Lumas are now way more expensive than a few months ago. Instead of 1m for some of them, they are now 2m+.
I think a part of the problem is that there are Players that have multiple Accounts. I heard of one having 10 Accounts.

Coming To 'The Dojo Problem'
Dojos are insane value in Pensuns / Hour and shows that there is either a lack of Other Options farming Pensuns effectively or that the Pensuns from Dojos should get nerfed. When a Player with 10 Accounts farms all Dojos that would be 469.500 pensuns per week ( selling Radars ). So no wonder that there are these incredible Prices for Perfect Lumas. People that have 1 Account will never be able to catch up with these Prices.
 

Cheware

Tamer
Joined
Nov 2, 2020
Messages
495
Well, no.

First, nerfing the Dojo rewards because 0.1% of the population is abusing them with 10 accounts will be a nerf for everyone. So instead of seeing 2m+ Lumas, you'll see 500k+ Lumas but that will be unachievable as well for the casual/normal player having only one account. Multi-accounts will always be a problem for the economy and there is no valid solution to that so far, except outright forbidding it, but why would Crema forbid that you give them money ?

Secondly, the prices of perfect Lumas depends on a few things :
- Lumas rarity
- Telomere Hotfixes availability
- Overall inflation

And we are in the bottom of the pit here. The fact there is fewer people playing due to the content drought since Cipanku leads to fewer Lumas, and also fewer Telomere Hotfixes (as more difficult to run Lairs, at least in pugs). Needless to remind that obviously, 5-10-15% Lumas are no longer accessible for the casual player since their Radars' removal from the game - a move that only favored a handful of players.
Then, the Pansun Inflation still has no way to be controlled, so the amount of Pansuns available in game has only increased without any sort of control, so yeah, it has come out of hand, especially with this handful of people ruining the economy for anyone.
 

alexshi2015

Apprentice
Joined
Jun 17, 2021
Messages
108
nerfing the only effective pansun method will force ppl to grind - effectively making a decent proportion of the players quit the game.
We have to acknowledge that not everyone enjoys grinding. Plus, ppl have work, or assignments from school. Playing 10h every week is just not an option for most ppl.
I work full time and I also have licensing exams as part of my career progression. I spend a max of 8h playing per week. This is already more than my friends who are professionals.
Fixing the absurdly high price for a luma tem needs some unique methods.
 

Kaaena

Rookie
Joined
Sep 12, 2020
Messages
78
Perfect luma are supposed to be the extreme end goal so it's either difficult to achieve by itself, or extremely expensive yes.

there is either a lack of Other Options farming Pensuns effectively

Really ? I mean there is :
• fishing
• breeding
• selling stuff
• daily delivery
• freetem scarawatt or mimits
• selling luma or luma eggs
• doing PvP

if you really want money. Doing a freetem with mimits will give you approx 200k each week. With only 1 account, lucky you ! but yeah, of course it takes time...

I'm not sure you realise how time consuming it'd be to do 6 rematches with 10 accounts. I got 2, and it's already VERY LONG. So yeah, the small % of ppl having 10 accounts, who earn 469.500 pansuns per week with rematch + selling pansun, they earned it.
 

splaashed

Rookie
Joined
Aug 24, 2020
Messages
62
Well, no.

First, nerfing the Dojo rewards because 0.1% of the population is abusing them with 10 accounts will be a nerf for everyone. So instead of seeing 2m+ Lumas, you'll see 500k+ Lumas but that will be unachievable as well for the casual/normal player having only one account. Multi-accounts will always be a problem for the economy and there is no valid solution to that so far, except outright forbidding it, but why would Crema forbid that you give them money ?

That's just wrong.. If there was a consistent way to farm pensuns, then 10 accounts wouldn't be better then 1 Account. 10 Accounts are only a problem because of The Dojo Problem, since you can get a lot of Pensuns in a low amount of time.10 Accounts right now are not really benefeting you besides having access to multiple Dojos and maybe Koish fishing. However Koish fishing isnt really worth more than hunting Mimits.
 

splaashed

Rookie
Joined
Aug 24, 2020
Messages
62
if you really want money. Doing a freetem with mimits will give you approx 200k each week. With only 1 account, lucky you ! but yeah, of course it takes time...

I'm not sure you realise how time consuming it'd be to do 6 rematches with 10 accounts. I got 2, and it's already VERY LONG. So yeah, the small % of ppl having 10 accounts, who earn 469.500 pansuns per week with rematch + selling pansun, they earned it.

Im not sure if you are losing your dojos or something but i only need around 1 hour for all 6 Dojos. So that would be 10 Hours when having 10 Accounts for 469.500 Pensuns, when a Player with 1 Account farming Mimits an entire week will only get 200k, and you think that there is not a problem here? cmon..
 

splaashed

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Joined
Aug 24, 2020
Messages
62
nerfing the only effective pansun method will force ppl to grind - effectively making a decent proportion of the players quit the game.
We have to acknowledge that not everyone enjoys grinding. Plus, ppl have work, or assignments from school. Playing 10h every week is just not an option for most ppl.
I work full time and I also have licensing exams as part of my career progression. I spend a max of 8h playing per week. This is already more than my friends who are professionals.
Fixing the absurdly high price for a luma tem needs some unique methods.
That's a valid statement and i can fully understand you. But i still think that this multiple Account dojo abuse shouldn't be a thing.. Because what it does is boost Players by massive amounts of pensuns each week making them insanly rich where they can basically effort to buy any perfect luma from the market, because they gain money quicker than people can get a perfect luma ready.

Also i gotta say that most people that don't like grinding already quit temtem, because the game right now is already pretty grind heavy, even if you only do dojos. And grinding longer then someone else should be rewarded , thats just part of MMOs.
 
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Cheware

Tamer
Joined
Nov 2, 2020
Messages
495
That's just wrong.. If there was a consistent way to farm pensuns, then 10 accounts wouldn't be better then 1 Account. 10 Accounts are only a problem because of The Dojo Problem, since you can get a lot of Pensuns in a low amount of time.10 Accounts right now are not really benefeting you besides having access to multiple Dojos and maybe Koish fishing. However Koish fishing isnt really worth more than hunting Mimits.
10 accounts will always have an edge in pansun making over 1 account, disregarding how you twist the story. Nerf the Dojo Leaders from awarding 7k to 700 pansun, the guy with 10 accounts will still make 10 times more money than you with that sole activity.
But then the guy with 10 accounts will do 10x Mimit FreeTems per week and earn 2 million a week vs your 200k, then you'll ask for another nerf that will also impact you. And so on and so on.

That's a neverending story, and the worst in your topic is that you fail to realize that a straight nerf to dojo rematches will very importantly hurt 99.9% of the playerbase, while having a negligible impact on the 0.1% of players who have 10 accounts. That's ridiculous. Let's fuck up everyone, that will teach that guy (who will just find another way to cheat the system, he very likely plays 20 hours a day anyway).
 

splaashed

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Joined
Aug 24, 2020
Messages
62
10 accounts will always have an edge in pansun making over 1 account, disregarding how you twist the story. Nerf the Dojo Leaders from awarding 7k to 700 pansun, the guy with 10 accounts will still make 10 times more money than you with that sole activity.
But then the guy with 10 accounts will do 10x Mimit FreeTems per week and earn 2 million a week vs your 200k, then you'll ask for another nerf that will also impact you. And so on and so on.
Bro you have actually no clue what you are talking about.. Farming Mimits will take you a ton of time. I'm not even sure if you can even get your freetem full with Mimits in 1 week, because they are rare and hard to catch. So there would be no way that you could fully farm freetem with mimits on 10 accounts in 1 week. And even if you could, i wouldn't complain because the freetem rewards arent that high, but dojos are.

And the playerbase wouldn't get hurt because everyone gets the same treatment. The Prices might even drop because money will have more value and it helps to solve the issue of inflation.
 
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Joined
Nov 12, 2020
Messages
517
The price jump for perfect lumas is because people can't farm telomeres that are useable on lumas as easily since the split between hotfixes and hacks from lairs. If lairs paid out hotfixes at the same rate now as hacks used to be, as in eliminate hacks from the lair loot pool and restore the chance for a telomere drop to only be hotfixes, the high price on perfect lumas would come back down. Since one of the main reasons for the split was perfect lumas being deemed too easy to get, that change isn't going to happen so we're stuck with those prices.

If you want to penalize players using multiple accounts to farm dojo rematches then the solution is to prevent those multiple accounts from being able to consolidate their earnings. That means cracking down against using multiple accounts to harvest and consolidate wealth. Historically with MMOs this problem doesn't get solved.

Whether it spirals out of control as the upper economic class of the playerbase increases the amount of accounts for farming to eliminate the purchasing power of the middle economic class is a matter of how much the market changes when the in-game market is released. Some players having a lot of pansuns won't matter if those players are only interested in buying exclusive cosmetic items including clothes and perfect lumas, while perfect non-luma eggs are beneath their interest leaving those prices about where they are now.
 

Kaaena

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Joined
Sep 12, 2020
Messages
78
I'm not even sure if you can even get your freetem full with Mimits in 1 week, because they are rare and hard to catch
it's perfectly doable, if you got indeed time, and a good optimized team (and maybe phero).

I agree with Napkin & Cheware here, nerfing dojo is not a solution and will hurt most players.

Im not sure if you are losing your dojos or something but i only need around 1 hour for all 6 Dojos
not losing any, but i am not 100% focused (because it's a bit annoying) so mostly looking at a movie, or chattin meanwhile, so yeah, it takes a little longer, but then you have to connect the second account, transfer the tem team, going back to do the 6 rematch, and if you got 10 account i can assure you it'll take time anyway. but it seems you're not willing to listen so i'll leave it here ^^
the end word being : if you want more money, there is many ways to obtain some, and dojos rewards are not the problem.
 

Dapper Dinosaur

Apprentice
Joined
May 19, 2021
Messages
155
"So i saw that the Prices of Perfect Lumas are now way more expensive than a few months ago. Instead of 1m for some of them, they are now 2m+."

This is only the lumas that you cannot get a radar for. No other lumas are higher, in fact they're lower.

We don't need any more ridiculous nerfs to income/rewards, thanks. I don't know why you hate people with more than one account so much, but this is AT LEAST the second thread you've made where you want to make a massive sweeping (and in this case, ludicrously bad) change to the game because of what you perceive is an issue being caused by multi-account players.

As someone that has and will only ever play on one account: Give it a rest, man. If you don't like that people can no-life the game better than you, you have two choices:

A. Deal with it, or
B. Grind harder.

The game is not done yet, nor are all of the planned methods to get pansuns and items. How about instead of calling for money gain to be slowed even worse than it already has, we accept things the way they are while we wait to see what Crema does?
 
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Kaaena

Rookie
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Sep 12, 2020
Messages
78
Amen to that. You want the rarest thing in the game, you work for it, it's simple as this, imo.
 

Goldschuss

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Joined
Mar 7, 2020
Messages
249
Remember at the start of early access, when everyone who complained about the high prices of clothes was told: "It's just early access, clothes are endgame we will have more pansuns late game"

Yeah, I'm also looking forward to 1.0 where we will earn so many pansuns, that we can pick up a 50k cosmetic on the fly.
 

splaashed

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Joined
Aug 24, 2020
Messages
62
Well there is a lot of people who complain about rich people that basically have like every perfect luma tem and tons of pensuns and this is just a reason of why its even a thing .. but if you want the market to be one sided.. sure.. but you won't be happy in the future when you want to buy a perfect luma yourself.
 

splaashed

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Joined
Aug 24, 2020
Messages
62
"So i saw that the Prices of Perfect Lumas are now way more expensive than a few months ago. Instead of 1m for some of them, they are now 2m+."

This is only the lumas that you cannot get a radar for. No other lumas are higher, in fact they're lower.
Show me 1 perfect Luma that has gotten cheaper ? I haven't seen a perfect Luma being sold for 1m or less for a long time..

Also this Forum is for Suggestions and you saying that im a no-lifer and i should deal with it or grind harder is just not fitting at all. We're supposed to give arguments of why something is bad or good and not personally attack someone.
 
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Dapper Dinosaur

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May 19, 2021
Messages
155
Well there is a lot of people who complain about rich people that basically have like every perfect luma tem and tons of pensuns,

but you won't be happy in the future when you want to buy a perfect luma yourself.
Firstly, there is nobody except you complaining from what I've seen. Secondly, I'm never going to be dumb enough to buy a perfect luma. I don't care anywhere near enough about a palette swap to decimate my savings to get a perfect one. I'll either get one myself through hard work or just get my own and not perfect it. If I want to use the tem for things outside the auto-scaled ladder, I'll just use a normal one. It's not a difficult concept. You're doing the equivalent of complaining that a top-end lawyer has a Lamborghini and the price of all Lamborghinis is too high because the lawyer worked harder to get a better job than you to afford it. You don't need a Lamborghini, your regular, affordable car does exactly the same job, it's just not as cushy or flashy. I suggest you get over it.
 

Dapper Dinosaur

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May 19, 2021
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155
"Show me 1 perfect Luma that has gotten cheaper ? I haven't seen a perfect Luma being sold for 1m or less for a long time.."

There is no price precedent for perfect lumas, even Tortenite's Garden doesn't have a section for them. That being said, the prices for the perfect lumas being as high as they are is completely reasonable seeing as how easy it is to make a lot of money if you just invest the time into breeding. I do absolutely no selling of tems and completely skip freetem if the reward tiers are crap, and I'm sitting on 1.4 million right now. If I actually did those things I could double my money and put myself in the range of being able to afford most perfect lumas within a week.

Most lumas that are 3 million+ are that expensive because they are lumas you can only find from full-odds right now because of a terrible developer attitude about required scarcity, which in case you didn't know is a 1/10,000 chance on a 1/20 encounter rate temtem. If you had one of those with perfect stats you would be absolutely out of your mind to sell it for anything less. They are literally by far the most valuable things in the game except luma mythicals (as far as I'm aware only one luma volgon exists and no tyranaks yet) and only a tiny handful of each one exists. You join a very select club when you own one of those.
 

Bacon4ever

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Mar 12, 2020
Messages
169
They are literally by far the most valuable things in the game except luma mythicals (as far as I'm aware only one luma volgon exists and no tyranaks yet) and only a tiny handful of each one exists. You join a very select club when you own one of those.
there is 1 perfect luma volgon and 1 non perfect luma volgon and dont think there is any tyranak yet.

As far as things being rare and prices. rare things only get more expensive or stay stable with time unless they become easier or more common to obtain.
and common things get cheeper or stay the same depending with supply and demand.

And considering after 1.0 launch the devs will be spending a entire year just focused on end game content that will be new ways to farm parsons and other rewards through activities with verry likely new items cosmetics etc there should be enough stuff that any one that puts in the time can grind toward something they want.
 
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Rigaudon

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Joined
Feb 7, 2020
Messages
109
Well there is a lot of people who complain about rich people that basically have like every perfect luma tem and tons of pensuns and this is just a reason of why its even a thing .. but if you want the market to be one sided.. sure.. but you won't be happy in the future when you want to buy a perfect luma yourself.
My brain is foggy so this is going to be less concise and well-worded than my usual posts, so forgive any repeating elements lol.

Even before dojo re-runs even existed, those perfect luma tems never have been "easily recognized as affordable" for regular people. Most of the people that can afford these assets are market-savvy and know how to "trade up" and flip assets for even better assets or at least get very agreeable deal terms. Some of these people use moral means, some of them do not. But that is the truth of any MMO. You really are not looking at the affect of multi-account dojo runs, because these prices existed before that feature existed.

All that said, a Perfect Luma at $1,000,000 price will take a player who ONLY does a single account's dojo rematch about 20 weeks to afford. That is 4 months in real time, but also only 20 hours of work spread out over those 4 months. No buying clothes, teleports, new tems, etc. Not a bad deal for 20 hours of work and some patience in my opinion but I can't exactly call that an engaging concept. If I had saved up everything, I could technically have 2 perfect lumas with the most basic of effort by now. Maybe I could afford 3 if I did other activities like the post office, fishing, played a lot of ranked PVP using imperfect hand-trained tems, etc.

Numerically, having 2 accounts turns that into 10 weeks. 3 accounts turns that into 6.6 weeks or something. I can't deny if you are doing nothing but dojos, having 3 accounts does give benefits when it comes to perfect lumas.

...On the other side of the coin, I can also tell you from experience that running multiple accounts for dojos gets old. I'm the person that wrote the "how to do dojos easy" guide that a large amount of people rely on. I have 3 accounts. I normally do less than 1 dojo a week, because it will burn you out hard to be efficient since it is samey and kind of braindead once you know how to do it.

Onto my next point, here is the setup required to get an account "dojo-ready":
You have to have a computer that can run a discord version and a steam version of the game at once. You have to do the story, preferably by cooping yourself or with a friend. You have to do a lot of sidequests just for the necessary gear items. After you have beaten the story, you have to have trained a tem native to that account to level 72 in order to be able to use level 72 traded tems. (This also means you can't trade over a level 72 Oceara to make things fast; you have to coop yourself or some other method, and getting something to level 72 still takes a hot minute.)

You have to also know where and what all of these quests/items/efficient training methods are, because if you don't do all these steps somewhat optimally oh BOY is that a LOT of extra wasted time. And that is, of course, after running the entire story, which nets you about $100,000 per account. Each dojo account run casually takes me about 40mins-1hr each. So for about 3 hours a week, I do get $150,000 if I am bothered. I won't lie, within the context of the game itself that is pretty sweet.

The sidequests are so tedious that I don't even have Sweatband on account 3 yet lol.

So let's say the story takes about 10 hours, the "leveling a tem to 72" takes 1 hour, and all the sidequests you want for gear takes 3-7 hours pending on efficiency and how lazy you are. That is still 14 hours of effort per account to make it dojo-ready, even if you already have a team that is ready to be traded over.

Not to mention a single account costs around $40. Who in the absolute hell is spending $400 and 140 just on temtem accounts so they can horde perfect lumas? How on earth could there be enough people doing that to where it affects the market with inflation, ignoring the fact the prices have always been nutty pre-dojo at the top end? I know just 1 extra account tentatively adds an extra $50,000 into the market per week, but with only 700 people a week playing this at the same time (Temtem - Steam Charts) I can't imagine that there are that many people who are making this an abusive problem. How many of those active people can't run two copies of temtem at once? How many are even feeling enamoured enough to HAVE 2 accounts? I constantly feel like I'm in the minority with 3. Several people in my """hardcore""" (for temtem lol) active PVP club only have 1 account and half of my fellow multi-accounters don't even use that second account on a regular basis.

Even so, how many multi-account people are like me? I am a PVP player, and I am basically forced to do braindead grinding if I want to redo my team's TVs and stuff unless I cough up some dough. Most of my income goes to the Omninesia fruit stand lady, because all I want to do is PVP...and TV training takes literally an entire day's worth of time to complete. That is so gross, and without access to reasonable money to skip that grind I would not be here to make this post. I would have straight up quit, and I imagine a lot of people have over this.

So personally, I spent 42 hours (probably more honestly) making 3 accounts that can dojo-run just so the game itself can eat 90% of my profits, all so that I could skip grind. I don't think 42 hours of setup + other time spent learning special optimizations and then acting on those, just for that money to then effectively disappear into the ether, as something harmful. Fully TV training one tem with fruits costs $20,000. If I'm making a new team of 8, that cost is $160,000 in fruits per singular team. Disgusting.

I will say that Dojos are definitely more efficient and engaging than freetem, but is that not a criticism of freetem? It is definitely easier to get into than breeding, but in a way is that not a criticism of breeding? It's more reliable money than finding and selling lumas, but that's because of the OT system destroying any potential a non-OT luma could have. The $160,000 cost to skip TV training via fruits is the worst of all. That is a steep price to avoid something completely unfun just so I can finally be able to "play the real part of the game".

I really think the "unreachable personal goals/inaccessible luma economy" are a symptom of fundamental issue that have plagued this game for over a year now, ever since Saipark was added (long story) and telohack issues weren't nipped in the bud. It is now well known that outside of PVP, temtem's endgame is frankly boring right now. I don't think removing people's ability to circumvent that endgame is better than re-evaluating the value the rest of the endgame features give.


"Respecting player's time" is a buzzword right now for a reason; Dojo rematches respect the player's time and PVP respects the player's time. But frankly, nothing else does. Want to "fix" this?

Make the endgame grind features give comparable payouts to dojos. Make at least one of them less braindead. Make me want to play the game, or make the game's systems more accessible. You really can't justify MMO-level grind without MMO-level features, because frankly Pokemon Showdown has done the "PVP made easy and engaging" and any other free Pokemon MMO has already done the "unfair luma/shiny endgame brainless grass simulator." Temtem needs to be more than that, and until then we will get problems that people will try to circumvent, such as with alternate accounts and multi-dojo running.
 
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Tezlers

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Joined
Feb 17, 2020
Messages
55
Sorry I couldn't read all comments before posting, but are u really proposing to nerf the only interesting content available in late game right now?
Yes, I agree having multiple accounts is somewhat "unethical", but Crema will probably never work towards something that will give them less money.
Regarding the perfect Luma cost part, as it is purely cosmetic, I'm ok with the current prices. I think they will drop once we have better ways to farm hotfixes, as some dev mentioned we will have in the endgame island.
 

Dapper Dinosaur

Apprentice
Joined
May 19, 2021
Messages
155
Yeah I think splashed has realized his mistake and has bailed on the topic. He was replying daily until my post, then he hasn't been back once. It's very unlikely he just randomly decided not to keep posting. He was last seen "yesterday", so he's been on the forum.
 
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