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Warning: The massive problem with Temtems competitive

Solmy

Rookie
Joined
Feb 21, 2020
Messages
84
With Temtem now nearing a release date, I think it is extremely important to talk about one giant elephant in the room that might choke Temtem to death if it isn't addressed.

In general, a competitive scene is extremely helpful for any game as it is a relatively cheap way for a developer to keep the community interested in a game once the infrastructure is in place, and Temtem already could ride on their infrastructure for a long time on just some small changes over time.

But there is one massive problem this thread is about, and that is ACCESSIBILITY.


Competitive modes are always problematic when it comes to accessibility, with some games going to the extreme by just decoupling competitive completely from the other game areas (Guild Wars 2 for example), but I don't think Temtem would want to go that far.

I don't think what I'm about to say isn't particularly controversial, as Crema themselves already acknowledged the problem early on when they made every Tem scale to max level in ranked matches and have perfect SV, but the game outgrew this solution very fast.

Following, I want to compile a list of what I think is necessary to get started with a competitive squad to illustrate the problem.

Here is a list of what is needed to get to, at least a decent, ranked competitive, experience:

  1. Once you decided to build a competitive squad, you enter a planning phase. Usually you have a few Tems in mind you want to build around, so you enter the teambuilding phase. Brainstorming different teams, finding solutions for certain problems you might run into, and rounding out a team. This step alone can already take hours to days, depending on the experience and proficiency of the player. Time estimate: 1-2 days
  2. Is the TV planning phase, this phase can be either short or excruciatingly long depending on the team type and the specific needs and wants. Time estimate: minutes - days
  3. With the basic theoretical steps over, we come to the parts the game really needs to address. Now the player needs to either breed or otherwise acquire the Tems necessary for the team (an experienced long term player might already have the Tem, but there will usually be at least a few Tems one has to acquire). The auction house already helped massively with this step, but it is still a steep hurdle, even if you don't take perfects into consideration, as you usually want at least a few egg moves and specific traits. Time estimate: a few hours (if pansuns are accessible)
  4. TV training is probably the most annoying step in this whole thing (at least for me) that either eats a lot of time or a massive amount of pansuns (that a newer player is already starved on). The more specific the target TV are, the more of a headache can it be to calculate the enemies or fruits needed. I think this step has massive potential to get cut down on the problem. I will give some ideas after the list. Time estimate: days - weeks
  5. Leveling is still necessary, even if we only consider ranked competitive play, because most Tems get new skills after certain levels and if you are using a Tem that gains a key skill at level 98, well, tough luck, the automatic scaling will do nothing for you. At least leveling is simple enough, and you don't have to watch that you don't overshoot numbers accidentally. Time estimate: days - weeks
Now you have a squad ready to go and test out, but after some tests you realize you overlooked something, and you need to make some adjustments. Maybe you have to change some TVs or you have to swap some Tems out that don't work as planned. Depending on the severity of the problems you run into, you might even end up having to start the whole process from step 1.

The big problem is that just getting a squad ready from scratch, even if you already have some Tems and/or pansuns, all the steps will take a few days to a few weeks, depending on how much time a player spends in the game.

Now imagine spending two weeks to get a competitive squad ready just to start from square one again because something didn't work out as intended. This would obviously be the worst case scenario, and it isn't that unusual for a new player to fall into a trap somewhere and end up having to go back to square one, and it can lead to players even leaving the game.

The huge time investment is not just bad for the players, but also the health of the game in general, as potential players will never even get started on the road, skip steps and have a subpar experience or get frustrated over time and leave. At that point, what is all the infrastructure created for competitive really good for if it doesn't fulfil its role, as it is too much of an investment for the average player.

We know that Crema at least acknowledged this problem by creating the scaling solution with the implementation of ranked competitive, but I think if they don't address the scale of the problem before an open release, all the work put into the competitive scene could be nullified.

Next, I want to give some input and ideas on how I think solutions could look like:

  1. I don't thin there is much that can be done to the first step, I would even say it is part of the genre and part of the creative gameplay, so it is not necessarily bad, even though some in game tools would be nice (Temteam is a great page to help here, but a new player won't find an outside source or might not want to use it).
  2. Step 2 and 4 are the most problematic, at least in my opinion, but my solution might be too drastic to some, so other solutions are obviously also welcome, but something here has to change. My solution would be to just make TVs a field where you can put the number you want after you trained a TV once. For example, if I have a Tem that I gained 500 TVs in every stat I can freely choose how to split the TVs. If I have a Tem that only has TVs trained to 200 HP and 50 STA but 500 ATK, I could only give it maximum 200 HP 50 STA but up to 500 ATK, but after I trained more HP I could take out points from elsewhere and put it into HP after the Tem got the theoretical knowledge to have more HP TV. That approach would be somewhat heavy-handed, but would also have multiple positives, like encouraging experimentation or needing only one version of a Tem instead of keeping multiple, like many top players are doing right now.
  3. The auction house is already a good step, but it is also relying on player to provide the needed resources, maybe an alternative would be good as a safeguard, for example rent Tems for a small fee or something of the like to test out new Tems.
  4. As mentioned in point 2.
  5. Leveling wouldn't be a problem (scaling is already a thing, as mentioned already), but there needs to be a solution for the skill issue to not make the level scaling a useless feature for competitive ranked.
I'm sorry this got very lengthy, but I really wanted to get this out before it gets too late as I really want the game to succeed, but I see a massive problem in the longevity of the game if necessary steps aren't taken.
 

Pink G

Apprentice
Joined
Jan 25, 2020
Messages
229
I believe Crema have responded that they are aware of the grind, which one could take that they will be doing something about it for 1.0 (but also I understand they could not delay other stuff like CU1 to figure this out)
 

alexshi2015

Apprentice
Joined
Jun 17, 2021
Messages
135
I really hope the grind issue can be solved by crema properly at 1.0.
Just to quote Yaw's own words here Steam Community :: YaW :: Games
Yaw reviewed a game saying "Can't really recommend this one. The game is truly boring and repetitive. The PVP content *looks* good, but you need to spend 200h to reach the maximum level to enjoy it. The PVE content is just horrible.";
and another game saying "It's not a bad game but it gets really, really repetitive. You basically play the same levels over and over and over without any substantial changes."

Currently to train and level around 50 tems for PVP, it takes way more than 200h. I don't think this is something desirable for the new layering coming at 1.0
 

Gami

Apprentice
Joined
Mar 16, 2020
Messages
224
As someone that has talked a lot about this, I will try to give an easy doable solution.

You have to make the game so you can easily enter ladder and off that then go to do the different activities that require more effort like dojo park/end game island.

How do you do that? It is simple, they have already done step 1, make ladder scale levels and sv. However you still have one problem, tv's currently cost about half of the (perfect) tem itself + you need to level for techniques (so training a non perfect feels really bad)

Step 2: You either need tv's to be a slider for ladder or to be cheaper (easily obtainable). With this done you still have the second problem: "I need to level to lvl 96 cause I need that move" you can either do one of two things that are linked with the tv solution, either in the UI with sliders you can equip any technique regardless of lvl, or you can do it so there isnt any techniques to be obtained since lvl 80, meaning that you only need to train 500k exp for lvl 80 instead of 1M for lvl 100.

Along with making learning aid tradable and dropping more fruits in differet activities, ladder would be really easy to enter while also getting that objective of being harder to enter on hardcore stuff like igts, dojo wars or community tourneys.


Imagine someone that just finished story, they could buy learning aids and every tem would take 7.5 minutes (assuming they need lvl 80), thats one hour to enter to their first pvp experience.
 
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Solmy

Rookie
Joined
Feb 21, 2020
Messages
84
I believe Crema have responded that they are aware of the grind, which one could take that they will be doing something about it for 1.0 (but also I understand they could not delay other stuff like CU1 to figure this out)
Do you have any sources for your claim? Like a quote or something?
 
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